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 Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers

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srg
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PostSubject: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:58 am

Ok, so for someone as slow as me, the prep cannot begin soon enough, and I dont want to leave all my eggs in one Chaotic basket.

That said, I need some options until we at least see a Chaos book, so Flesh Tearers it is...

Fluff counts at Gottacon, and Seth (and other SC's) are instant Fluff, so in he goes, setting my theme.

Seth
160

Sanguinary Priests are crazy good, who doesnt like Feel No Pain and Furious Charge?

Sanguinary Priest x 2
100

MSU, kept afloat by the Sanguinary Priests, and their Razorbacks, I'll bring 3 of these, 1 for each character.

Assault Marines (5) - 100
Meltagun - 10
Powersword - 15
125

Razorback 55
TL Assault Cannon - 35
Assault Squad Discount (-) 35
55

Sub Total - 180
Total - 540

---
The Deathstar
---

Chaplain w/Jump Pack
125

5 Death Company w/Jump Packs, Power Fist
200

Death Company Dread
125

Storm Raven
200

Total
650

----

Scouting Predators, sure!

Baal Pred w/Heavy Bolter Sponsons and Dozers
150

Baal Pred w/Heavy Bolter Sponsons and Dozers
150


Total - 1750 on the nose.

Let me know your thoughts and critiques. Yes its a death star army, yes its a ton of KP, but on the table, it should be looking decently, and I have some idea's for some good 'oh thats cool' options.
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:18 am

I don't know the tearers fluff, but for me SCs take away from a theme, as much as add to it. they bring rules and bonuses that are almost always a tactical bonus. I felt that despite having Belial and two termie squads, your *all* Khorne army was much fluffier, helped by the fact that you were at a disadvantage to do so. you are being rewarded by the community for handicapping yourself. If there is a strong enough theme, you don't really need a SC. there are cases, where all sang guard or termies, or bikes/jetbikes would make a great theme, but no one ever takes it far enough. an Eldar army with ONLY jetbikes/vipers/falcons??? ALL beastmaster or ALL wych DE armies??? ALL grot army!!?? these aren't done.

anyway, the list looks fun, as long as the SR can get TL multimelta to pop whatever the DC want at. Seth is not in Deathstar??
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:14 pm

I can see your point, and was thinking about it last night actually. In this case however, Seth is a detriment to the list more then anything.

The other option is to take a Librarian instead.

125 with a JP, and I can then take one of the Razorback squads, and make it a 10 strong JP Assault squad.

That squad wont have a Sanguinary Priest, but can keep pace behind the rhinos for a cover save. Not sure which is stronger really, though I would lean towards the librarian version below.

Librarian w/JP
The Blood Lance, Fear of the Darkness

Chaplain w/JP
2 Sang Priests

10 Assault Marines, Power Weapon, Melta
5 Assault Marines, Power Weapon, Melta, Razorback w/TL Assault Cannon
5 Assault Marines, Power Weapon, Melta, Razorback w/TL Assault Cannon
5 Death Company, Power Fist

Baal Pred, TL AC, 2 HB, Dozer
Baal Pred, TL AC, 2 HB, Dozer

Storm Raven, TL AC, TL MM
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:09 pm

1500 - Practice Games

Librarian w JP

Furioso w/Fragcannon in a Pod

Furioso w/Talons in a Pod

Sang Priest w/JP
Power Weapon
Melta Bomb

10 Assault Marines
Melta

5 Marines in a Pod
Melta

5 Marines in Razorback w/TL AC
Melta

5 Marines in Razorback w/TL AC
Melta

Baal Pred w/TL AC, HB
Baal Pred w/TL AC, HB


Last edited by srg on Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:14 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:27 pm

Ok, scrap all those, this is a far stronger list.

Librarian w JP

Furioso w/Fragcannon in a Pod

Furioso w/Talons in a Pod

Sang Priest w/JP
Power Weapon
Melta Bomb

10 Assault Marines
Melta
Melta
Powerfist

10 Assault Marines
Flamer
Flamer
Power Weapon

5 Marines in a Pod
Melta

5 Marines in Razorback w/TL AC
Melta
PW

5 Marines in Razorback w/TL AC
Melta
PW

Baal Pred w/TL AC, HB
Baal Pred w/TL AC, HB

Super aggressive, two AV 13 dreads in your face on Turn 1, 2 AV 13 scouting tanks unloading on you in turn one, and 22 jumpers coming at you to clean up the contents. Very Happy


Last edited by srg on Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:07 am

now THAT is a wicked BA list! Great threats, though those dreads will be facing alot of potential melta.
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:47 pm

They will, no doubt, but its 125 points. So cheap. :p
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:04 am

How do you see running the Libby and Priest? together, apart, or any jobs for your HQ??
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:23 pm

Mostly I would run them together. Keeping both JP squads together to keep the FNP bubble rolling, I would have the librarian set up with Lance (Str8 AP1) and Unleash Rage (Preferred Enemy for the squad) so that they pack a bit of a punch when they arrive, as your normal assault marine isnt really that killer in vs other MEQ options like Berzerkers, or Grey Hunters, or Grey Knights.

You then have, FNP, Furious Charge, Preferred Enemy coming at you.

8 WS5, S5, I5 Power Weapon Attacks
3 S9 Power Fist
27 S5, I5 CCW Attacks

Should make a decent dent in most anything that isnt Paladins. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:03 am

with a new app, i've gone through a few trial rolls, and looks like 2-5 pw wounds, 1-2 PF wounds and 8-11 reg wounds (on average) which should wipe a tac squad
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:57 pm

Tweaked a bit, dropped the Baal preds, for more ranged AT, and the furioso for the DC squad. What this gives me is some of that heraldry that I was refering to in the other thread, instead of all standard marines.

Librarian with JP
Lance, Unleash Rage
125

Chaplain - 100

Sang Priest w/JP
75

7 Death Company
Thunder Hammer
170

10 Assault Marines
Melta
Melta
Powerfist
235

10 Assault Marines
Melta
Melta
Powerfist
235

5 Marines in Razorback w/TL AC, Dozer
Melta
170

5 Marines in Razorback w/TL AC, Dozer
Melta
170

Stormraven - 200

Pred - AC/LC
135

Pred - AC/LC
135
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:19 pm

Nice well rounded mix on paper, but i've heard that SRs are likely to get shot down by turn 3. I understand your wish for some lascannons, but consider that you'll get essentially to pick 1-2 targets a turn for your AT. Is that enough? Since it's being shot from your back edge, it will likely be aiming at Front armour/flickerfields/tau fields/cover. I really like the Baal, cuz with the 18" scout move you get to pour shots into Side armour/clear line of sight, AND it forces your opponent (best tactical position) to deal with them, again giving meltas and PFs a better chance to move up unmolested. also, bodycount counts for something. DC are power, but predictable, and die to missles easily.
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:04 pm

Yeah all good points.

I was going for a higher body count vs having them in a LR of some kind, and was hoping that if I present enough targets (2 Preds, 2 Razors, 2 Big Jumpers) that I would be able to hide the stormraven for a turn, and dump the contents turn 2 at the worst. Its really just the cheapest assault vehicle. You think I should drop them down to 5 or something and go LR instead?

The Pred's and hopefully razorbacks can do something in Turn 1, and while they dont have scout, the standard preds do have range which the Baal Preds do not.
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:44 pm

Ok, updated list after last night.

Dropped the DC/Chap/SR for a Sternguard alpha strike squad in a Pod, a Baal Pred, and 2 more priests to hang out with the Razor squads. The Sternguard/Baal Pred offer some T1 pressure, while I push everyone up as fast as possible. I like the 2 backfield preds, as they attract attention and cant just be ignored, while also staying away from the parking lot that could be midfield if I face another meched up force.

I may also try different powers next game on the Librarian. Lance and Sword? Only one per turn, but if I get bogged in combat, the S10 could be helpful.

Librarian with JP
Lance, Unleash Rage
125

5 Sternguard
PowerFist
2 Melta
1 Combi Melta
Pod
195

3 Sang Priest
1 JP (With Jumpers)
1 Power Weapon (With Razorback 1)
1 Lightning Claw (With Razorback 2)
205

10 Assault Marines
Melta
Melta
Powerfist
235

10 Assault Marines
Melta
Melta
Powerfist
235

5 Marines in Razorback w/TL AC, Dozer
Melta
170

5 Marines in Razorback w/TL AC, Dozer
Melta
170

Baal Pred - TLAC/HB
145

Pred - AC/LC
135

Pred - AC/LC
135
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:20 pm

I like the Alpha strike, though like the dred we discussed, 5 marines may die just as quickly (chimeras/rhinos are threats). The S10 power for the Libby, i think would be great: don't want to get stuck against a walker, and just adds to your toolkit rather than buffing what you are pretty good at already.

Don't know if the models would be an issue, but consider in the Sternguards thier survivability, and how many shots you really expect to take with those melta guns. If it's not VERY common for them to get a second shot, they are much more versatile with Combis. I can understand your reluctance to only take combis, as one wiffed batch of rolls will leave them out of luck for the rest of the game...

Just a bit concerned about the single Baal, hope it's got the survivability, though it's got the distraction of the pod, and can hopefully provide some disruption for itself...

don't know where the points will come from, but a few HKM might help your early game disruption as well...

anyway, I really like how this is shaping up!
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:28 pm

I like this list because I can look at it and mentally plan against it with my army Wink

Seriously though, I like that it's mobile, has two "rock" units (stupid MSU...) and looks like it can handle most threats via weaponry and threaten most of the board via mobility.

One question, purely out of curiosity...why does on Sang Priest have a power weapon and the other a lightning claw? Just a points issue?
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:05 pm

No, points are the same. The single LC you lose out on the extra attack, as you only get that in pairs, however mathematically its better then a PW against anything T4+.

The reason they are different is purely for theme/fluff, as every chance you can get to avoid making all choices for purely in game reasons should be considered for the soft scoring of the tournament. It is also a modeling opportunity to have something different between the 2 Sang Priests on foot.

Night Lord wrote:
I like the Alpha strike, though like the dred we discussed, 5 marines may die just as quickly (chimeras/rhinos are threats). The S10 power for the Libby, i think would be great: don't want to get stuck against a walker, and just adds to your toolkit rather than buffing what you are pretty good at already.

Don't know if the models would be an issue, but consider in the Sternguards thier survivability, and how many shots you really expect to take with those melta guns. If it's not VERY common for them to get a second shot, they are much more versatile with Combis. I can understand your reluctance to only take combis, as one wiffed batch of rolls will leave them out of luck for the rest of the game...

Just a bit concerned about the single Baal, hope it's got the survivability, though it's got the distraction of the pod, and can hopefully provide some disruption for itself...

don't know where the points will come from, but a few HKM might help your early game disruption as well...

anyway, I really like how this is shaping up!

The reason I like the Sternguard, is if I do get to pop something, and 3 BS4 melta SHOULD have an impact, then they are just 5 marines, trucking around in the back lines. I agree that they would be more flexible with combi's, but its the same cost either way, and 2 Melta shots per turn is something you cant ignore, while some rapid fire shots? Maybe you can ignore those. The fist is there because first, its one of my favorite iconic Marine models, and second, if I immobilize my first target, then on my next turn I'll get to pop it with the Fist. Not very survivable for sure, but they are really kind of a throw away intentionally.

The Baal is really in the same boat. Its upfield, making a bit of a threat, and really just forcing you to make a choice, do you go after this 145 points and ensure it dies while the Razors move up, or jumpers close in, or do you focus on something down range. 4 TL AC, 6 HB is substantial if it gets at side armour, but again its cheap enough at this points level that within this list I see it as more of a bonus, then the focus.

I dont know yet how I would fully build around Baal Preds without dedicating a few squads of ML Dev's to hold my back line, and the cost of building 2 x 4 ML Dev's would be painful really. lol!

Looking at first turn disruption then, I would have the AC/LC x 2 Preds, the Baal Preds 10 Shots, and the Sternguard. In terms of Turn 1 without going again to 4ML Dev's or Rifleman Dreads I think thats about as good as I can do, but we will see over the next few games.
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:10 pm

Yes, in terms of Alpha distraction, the SG with three shots of melta Vs. VenDred with Multimelta: more shots/higher skill and more shots/higher range...... If the Guard scatter a little too far, their melta shots at long range loose some effectiveness, but they may have a greater chance of cover then.... the dred can be poped by a single gun, but with BS5 and MultiMelta, can quite reliably pop a tank within 12", but is about 200pts with pod.... also my agrument in favour of the combis for SG relates purely to their survivability, as I mentioned..... because they ARE more of a threat than others 'just' rapid firing...... Vengance rounds, Hellfire rounds...... I'd certainly run them for a couple games to see, also all 5 have A2, so getting charged by a squad of less than 7 may not be too scary!
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:45 pm

BA dont get Ven.Dreads, just Furioso which is a CC platform AV13, WS6.

Is the special ammo something you would worry about, more so then 2 Melta shots? Just looking at it, you would have 10 rapid fires from a full squad, 6 or 7 hits, and (MEQ) 3 or 4 wounds, normally.

Unless you are risking the Gets Hot! to punch through the 3+, your looking at ignore cover, or wounding on a 2. 10 shots in this scenario, vs MAYBE a second round of tank popping, or at least making you move.

What I am most concerned about, is AT firepower, as I have a handful of TL Assault Cannons, the 2 AC/LC preds, and then meltaguns, I am not super concerned with large groups of foot troops as I think the list has enough to deal with that in the 2 jumpers or assault cannons. Will need to play it out for sure though.

What do you think of the big flamer variant of the Baal Pred though? S6/AP3, is something that I think is pretty interesting.

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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:23 pm

Ugh!

The nids stomped me twice.

First game just went south with, on review not much I could do.

1. I had far too many points tied up in Assault Marines. Yeah its nice to have them with FNP, but nids eat things on foot apparently! Who would have thought.
2. That limited the amount of meaningful shooting I had in my first round, and 1 below average round of shooting was enough to get me in trouble.
3. Mech vs Doom. If you dont have it, he will likely wreck a squad in the open. :[

Second game, I realize I made a lot of errors.

1. Left things on the extreme flank to get eaten by stealers.
2. Drove straight up to do all of nothing while he was in reserve, giving him first shooting round (doh!)
3. Again, with the jumper squad, this time getting eaten by Mawlocs.

There will be much revision of my list thats for sure...
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:40 pm

For what it's worth, I forgot to roll Instinctive Behavior for the tyrannofex, but with one "Stunned" result over 5 turns of shooting and not a single shot directed at him, I don't think that was exactly pivotal. Also, technically I'm supposed to announce I'm outflanking genestealers so that would have reminded you to not put tanks on the side.

Couldn't you take 2 melta per 10-man squad, then combat squad them? That gives even a little 5-man assault squad some punch and they'd do decently against most units that aren't dedicated assault.

Overall, your shooting did not do what it was supposed to but that was due to sub-par rolling (how many melta and las did you miss with?) as opposed to list efficiency. How much AT do you have in that list? I remember 4 lascannons and various melta at least.

I don't know how much Doom is seen in lists (or as I said last night, 'nids at tournaments) but I think the Doom/Mawloc lesson is probably still valid. For jump troops, with their fancy 12" move, I don't know why you didn't start/put them in cover? That would have helped against both of those and if you were to face a BA fast Vindicator, an IG Manticore, SW Long Fangs, etc., same situation, same lesson.

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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:04 pm

Good points.

1. Combat Squading - I did that, but what I felt is that 5 Space Marines is just...underwhelming when they are 1 attack base, without a special weapon.
2. The AT, and therefore anti-monster, is pretty limited but I thought that was just my DE perspective with my DE packing 18 or 19 lance weapons. I thought I was ok, but clearly not.
3. Jumpers, I guess it was just inexperience vs. Nids and inexperience at using jumpers so chalk them up to just poor play on my part.

I've been running numbers and thinking things over, and really its just not coming out in a way I am too happy with after seeing those units as individual pieces, and look at this....

Blood Angels
5 Marines in Razorback w/TL AC, Dozer
Melta
170

4 12 inch S4 Shots
1 Str 8 AP 1 Shot Melta
4 24in TL S6 Rending

vs

Grey Knights

GKSS - 100
Psycannon - 10
Razorback (HB) - 45
Psybolt - 5
160

8 24 inch S4
2 or 4 24 inch S7 Rending
3 36in TL S6

Add 30 points, and it turns into purifiers...

I'm starting to think maybe Blood Angels are just too plainly inferior.
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:10 pm

Jesus, how are GK balanced...? That just seems absurd. I shudder to think of them compared to Codex Marines.

It really feels like anything you can do, GK can do better.
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:23 pm

It actually IS absurd when I compare the numbers against what my BA could do and this is with just throwing 205 points to the wind on a stormraven to drive Crowe around!!

Look at this 1750 list.

Crowe - 150

Vindicare
145

Purifiers - 120
2 x Psycannon - 20
Hammer - 5
Razorback (TLAC) - 80
Psybolt - 5
Dozer - 5
235

Purifiers - 120
2 x Psycannon - 20
Hammer - 5
Razorback (TLAC) - 80
Psybolt - 5
Dozer
235

Purifiers - 120
2 x Psycannon - 20
Razorback (TLAC) - 45
Psybolt - 5
190

GKSS - 100
Psycannon - 10
Razorback (HB) - 45
Psybolt - 5
160

GKSS - 100
Psycannon - 10
Razorback (HB) - 45
Psybolt - 5
160

Stormraven
205

Dreadnought - 115
Autocannon 10
Autocannon 5
Psybolt - 5
135

Dreadnought - 115
Autocannon 10
Autocannon 5
Psybolt - 5
135


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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon 2013 - List A - Flesh Tearers   Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:25 pm

So you can make a competitive and brutal list, better than BA, and still afford a flashy limo for your Crow tax?

Good job, Ward. Razz

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