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 Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!

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srg
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PostSubject: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:54 pm

Facebook, you are not worthy....

So, we almost all have a copy, much thanks to those who provide.

Quick breakdown here with my own worldview super imposed. I dont like big face smashing units, but I do like face smashing, I REALLY like weight of dice to get the true averages, and I think 40K is a shoot first, chop second world.

Oh and allies are the key to power....

HQ First!

Unlikely I will be taking any of the special characters, not because they arent good, but because they arent going to fit into either the points range (1750) or what I want to do (not run Kharn without a delivery system ie LR)

So its going to be a normal HQ. Note: The Warlord Traits are pretty decent!

Daemon Prince? I think there is some potential there, but man does it cost you.

Daemon Prince - 145
Nurgle - 15
Wings - 40
Black Mace - 45
- 245

This gives you a 5+ cover save at all times (Nurgle DP's are Shrouded), Flyer MC, and the Mace that can wreck stuff. Combine with a buffed statline, hes a beast, but you again, pay for it.

Lords. Cheap, and get buffed to be pretty good at killing.

Lord - 65
MoS - 15
Bike - 20

At that point either Murder Sword to chop up a character, or mace or claws I would think to chop up marines.

Sorcerer - Super cheap, I would keep them that way. I actually like the Slaanesh ones the most at a glance?

Warpsmith - Keep them as is really. I think shatter defense is a pretty cool utility move. He packs a flamer and a meltagun, and can fire both, and has 4 attacks base with the doc octopus thing going on.

Apostle - Of them all, I feel this guy the least, as I think its mostly a way to keep cultists from running off, and I dont intend to run cultists unless I go for a Word Bearer force...which would also make this guy an auto-include on grounds of Fluff...

-----

I think what I will likely settle on will depend on what I want to do for allies actually.

Biker Orks? Perhaps go with Biker Lord?
Horde Orks? Perhaps go with cheap utility Sorc?

Some things to think on anyway.

If I go allied Chaos?

Daemon Prince - Flying Monster
Nice squad of CSM in a Rhino (Plasma, or Melta, probably Plasma actually)
Heldrake - Flying, with anti-meq flamer. Hover really fixed this. When I didnt know about Hover, I didnt like it as its just too expensive, with Hover, it can actually stick around on the board!
Havocs - ML x 4 if I was running them as allies, all with Flak rounds.

Essentially everything that I couldnt get out of Orks.
-

Thoughts on HQ's?


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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:48 pm

Bring the pain lists!

Biker list obviously.

Lord + Bikers, can cut down MEQ, Anti-LR with the Meltas, and will be out there to nuke a character on Turn 2.
Boss + Bikers, can cut down MEQ, Anti-LR with Klaws, and will be out there to nuke anything on Turn 2.

Sorcerer + Noise Marines, setup somewhere and drop some pain on something. Mastery 3, with 2 Rolls on Slaanesh, 1 on Telepathy is the plan.
6 Marines, just an MSU squad, but it does bring some support with the Dirge Caster.

Forgefiend, or Heldrake? I think Forgefiend really for some heavy ranged support.
Havocs, all comers build. 2 ML with Flak, and 2 AC for general support and at least a shot at throwing something at a flyer.

30 Boyz to hang out in the back and hold my objective, or press up into the middle.

----

Strengths
+ 2 solid CC threats in the 2 Warlords and Bikers. Turn 2 assaults.
+ Decent shooting from Havocs, Fiend, Noise Marines.
+ Minimal Mech
+ 4 Troops

----

Weaknesses
+ Light on Anti-Air, but without bringing my own flyers, thats something I just need to live with.
+ Only one 'resilient' troop choice, the rest of MSU, or will be eating damage early and often (Nobz)
+ No Flyers, no 'hard' vehicles (LR), so I am not making it hard on my opponents.
+ Minimal Mech

----

Thoughts
The MSU Marines are largely a waste, but I need 2 troops in my main force, and want both HQ's from the CSM

The Warboss + Nob Bikers are nearly 500 points, and they will likely not survive the game.

I could really use some air support, but would then want to ensure I have 2 deep threats early.

Possible Changes
Drop the Boss/Nobz, change for Big Mek with KFF, and add Loota
Add Dakkajet, Heldrake and either Slaaneshi Raptors or Warp Talons more likely as the secondary threat.
Buff the Noise Marine/Sorcerers and/or the MSU Marines.

----

List Draft One

Chaos Lord
Mark of Slaanesh
VotL
Bike
The Murder Sword
Sigil of Corruption

Sorcerer
Mark of Slaanesh
Mastery LVL 3

5 Noise Marines
4 Sonic Blaster
Rhino
Dirge caster

6 Marines
Plasma Gun
Rhino
Dirge Caster

5 Bikers
Power Weapon
Mark of Slaanesh
VotLW
2 Melta
Icon of Excess

Forgefiend

5 Havocs
2 ML
2 Flak
2 AC

Warboss
Warbike
Power Klaw
Cybork

5 Nobz
Bikers
Painboy
2 Klaw
5 Cybork

30 Boys
3 Big Shoota
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:28 pm

They seem like good lists...but I am not a huge list builder so I cannot really judge too much. I do know that in my reading, MSU does seem risky now, blobs seem the way to go? The boyz could do it, or maybe invest in a cheap cultist blob? 150 points buys you 35 bodies?

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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:46 pm

I have way less faith in Cultist blobs, it almost seems like I must be missing something? Without an Apostle, they arent fearless, cant get the Icon to make them fearless, and WILL lose any combat.
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:59 am

Bit of an update.

Kept both Bike squads.
Added a super cheap cultist squad just to get my second troop in there.
Added 2 flyers.


Chaos Lord - 65
Mark of Slaanesh - 15
VotL - 5
Bike - 20
The Murder Sword - 35
- 140

Sorcerer - 60
Mark of Slaanesh - 15
Mastery LVL 2 - 25
- 100

5 Noise Marines - 95
4 Sonic Blaster - 12
Rhino - 35
- 142

10 Cultists - 50
Shotgun - 2
- 52

5 Bikers - 110
Power Weapon - 15
Mark of Slaanesh - 10
VotLW - 5
2 Melta - 20
Icon of Excess - 30
- 190

Heldrake - 170
- 170

Forgefiend - 175
- 175


Warboss - 60
Warbike - 40
Power Klaw - 25
Cybork - 10
- 135

5 Nobz - 100
Bikers - 125
Painboy - 30
2 Klaw- 50
5 Cybork - 25
- 330

30 Boys - 180
3 Big Shoota - 15
- 195

Dakkajet - 110
Supashoota - 10
- 120
780
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:19 am

So does the lord roll in with the nobz on his bike? I mean, it looks like a solid list, well balanced, no over dependencies, strong fast melee, flyers, good shooting and so on but really, you have to pick a style, build a list, try it, then modify, and repeat.

You should pick something and stick with that concept for a while, because sometimes it is hard to tell what will work from just pen and paper.
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:32 pm

Idea is to have 2 biker squads putting out the melee pressure, but Khorne marked would probably do that better, I'll try and re-work it as a Khorne list.
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:31 pm

srg wrote:
Idea is to have 2 biker squads putting out the melee pressure, but Khorne marked would probably do that better, I'll try and re-work it as a Khorne list.

I think Nobz are great because they're so tough, maybe have Khorne bikers and Nobz in front to draw fire? I mean hell, then you could cheap out on them a bit, drop a few power claws and use them as a distraction for the other guys.

On a note, Chaos bikers are so affordable now, I am really happy that mine will be coming out of the box, I think they will work well when following with a landraider, or just turbo boosting up a flank and allowing me to Deepstrike some heavy hitters to support them. They're so ubiquitous, they can be tie up units, anti tank, support, and so on!
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:21 pm

Yeah bikers are one of the winners of the new book, without a doubt. Just dropping this here for conversation...

Lord is very flexible, and Gottacon had a few tables full of terrain so with the Warp Talons should be able to hang out for a while, and has a 4++.
Sorc is super cheap, but can do some good things with Telepathy, probably my favorite lore just for Shriek and Invisibility, hes going to ride with the 9 CSM with Veterans of the Long War, and CCW.

2 x 10 CSM, cheap as it gets, but LD9, and just out there to shoot things.
2 x 10 Cultists, 100 points, 2 scoring options. They sit in my deployment zone and cower (go to ground) all game, I expect nothing else from them as I dont think they can really DO much.

Heldrake, I think it may be solid. I'll run it with the Baleflamer and toast some MEQ units.
Warp Talons, I just really like the fluff/look of these guys. They will roll with my Lord.
Bikers, do some of the early pressure work, hope for a turn 2 charge into something, like I was running the Nobz.

2 x 5 Havocs. 8S7 shots per squad, thats going to pop most transports, shoot down flying MC's, and they are super cheap, by Turn 2 the Melta will all be in range anyway.

After that, Heldrake flaps around the table as a skimmer, torching units, bikers jump into CC, CSM shoot at stuff, and the Warp Talons hopefully eat something!

Lord, Jump Pack, 2 LC, VotLW, Melta-Bomb, Sigil
Sorc, Mastery Level 2 (Telepathy)

9 CSM, Melta, CCW ( 8 ), VotLW, Rhino
10 CSM, 2 Melta, Rhino
10 CSM, 2 Melta, Rhino
10 Cultists
10 Cultists

Heldrake
6 Warp Talons, VotLW, 2 Gift of Mutation
7 Bikers, Power Weapon, VotLW, Melta x 2

5 Havocs, 4 AC
5 Havocs, 4 AC
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:40 pm

1750, Cultist Heavy

Lord - 65
MoK - 10
Axe of Blind Fury - 35
Sigil - 25
VotLW - 5
Juggernaught - 35

Dark Apostle - 105
MoK - 10
Brand - 35

Helbrute - 100

10 Berzerkers - 200
Melta Bomb - 5

30 Cultists - 130
3 Flamer - 15

10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50

3 Spawn - 90
Heldrake - 170
Heldrake - 170

Forgefiend - 175
Landraider - 230
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:32 pm

The list wars continue!

Gottacon missions, ONLY Battle Brother alliance, actually made my life really easy this afternoon when I was thinking of a list.

Mission 1: Vanguard, Kill Points
Mission 2: Normal, Capture the flag custom (3 Objectives)
Mission 3: Hammer, Big Guns (4 Objectives)
Mission 4: Vanguard, Crusade (4 Objectives)
Mission 5: Dawn, Emperors Will (2 Objectives)

First the missions.

1. Kill points, watch for outflankers as they can wreck you just like in spearhead.

2. This was the fun mission last time, make sure you bring stuff that can run/move/jump quick!

3. Long table, Big Guns so mind your heavy support which is scoring. Flyers are going to have 2 maybe 3 turns of action that they normally dont get, and if you want linebreaker you need to have stuff outflanking, flying, or deep striking!

4. Vanguard again, 4 objectives so bring the troops.

5. Dawn, 2 objectives, so about as straight forward as you can get. Things to watch for here, will be kill points, linebreaker, and slay the warlord, or just swamp with troops!

So, with the above in mind, heres my list right now. Note, with ONLY battle brothers, Orks are out now, which is lame, but allies is just too much to pass up. So its Chaos/Daemons.

Dark Apostle, masses of cultists, a few Dragons, with some Daemon support, this is a decent fluff list imo. With 5 troops (1 Blob, 2 small Cults, 2 Plague Bearers that have impressed me over several games against Tim and Russel), enough anti-mech (Havocs, Dragons, Screamers, Flamers in a pinch, and Quad Gun) some Anti-Air (Dragons, Havocs, Quad Gun), and the face basher Lord, Axe, Jugger + Spawn wave we are in a good place here.

As Daemons was the only option, I also geared this to be very vehicle light. Dragons being the only items with an AV.

THE LIST!

Dark Apostle (Warlord) - 105
Brand - 35
- 140

Lord - 65
MoK - 10
Axe of Blind Fury - 35
Sigil - 25
Meltabomb - 5
Juggernaught - 35
- 175

30 Cultists - 130
3 Flamer - 15
- 145

10 Cultists - 50
Heavy Stubber - 5

10 Cultists - 50
Heavy Stubber - 5

4 Spawn - 120
Heldrake - 170
Heldrake - 170

7 Havocs
4 AC's
- 138
**********
Herald of Nurgle - 50

3 (x 23) Flamers - 69

7 ( x 15) Plague Bearers - 105
7 ( x 15) Plague Bearers - 105

6 ( x 25) Screamers - 150

**********
Aegis
Quad Gun
- 100

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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:12 am

Interesting... think i would rather drop a flyer and try to fit a flying demon in there... yeah they are expensive but they can do so much. Those dragons will die.. people are meta flyers
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:17 am

I think thats really going to be the question, how much Flyer and Anti-Flyer is there going to be out there? AV12 with a 5+ Invulnerable isnt that easy to deal with when the majority of AA is S7.

Last year you had a wave of DE cookie cutter types, so I would expect a few Necron air force type lists, but REALLY gearing for Anti-Air is tough to keep it an all-rounder list...
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:29 am

I like this list alot!

mostly watch out for Alpha Strike armies since, especially if you go second, since you will only be fielding 1/2 your army, and the small cult squads may be exposed.
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:19 pm

God damn crazy juggernuaght lord will eff things in the B.


Last edited by big_jon on Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:06 pm

Quote :
4. Vanguard again, 4 objectives so bring the troops.

Only too true! That being said, I wondered if I could make an army of nearly ALL TROOPS, I caved a bit, to have a little support (which will play a role in Big Guns too) and it looks like this:

** Lords are to make Legions scoring, and to tank for said units; both on foot**


154 Lord; Mark of Nurgle, Terminator, Combi-Melta, Lightning Claw, Gift

154 Lord; Mark of Slaanesh, Terminator, Combi-Melta, Lightning Claw, Gift



175 Plague Marines x5; Plasmagun x2, Combi-Plasma/Power Weapon

180 Noise Marines x7; Sonic Blaster x6, CCW x3, Doom Siren/Power Weapon (CCW here are to fill in last points and help WYSIWYG)

223 Plague Marines x7; Plasmagun, Meltagun, Plasma Pistol/Power Weapon
47 Rhino; Havoc Launcher

195 CSM x10; Meltagun x2, VoLW, Combi-Melta/Power Weapon
45 Rhino; Combi-Melta

170 CSM x10; Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Power Weapon
47 Rhino; Havoc Launcher

50 Cultists x10 (in reserve)



135 Maulerfiend; Tentacles

175 Forgefiend
--------
1750
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:14 pm

Do you have any Autocannons you could throw around for ranged support in those CSM? Other then obviously some risk at being shot up by flyers, thats a lot of 3+ saves on the table.
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:28 pm

The first list I would worry about shooting early game, ie what you can shoot. Seems to be a lot of middle or late game flamer short range stuff, but perhaps i am wrong. When i say first list i am talking the 30 man cultists flamer list, with the other two smaller blobs. The comment about flyers, Necron air force, i really think it is over rated. You got a cultist blob behind a aegis, you go to ground for the 2 up and that whole air force can fire away and will only kill 5 or six tops.....
The second list looks interesting. WIll have to test. The rhinos I have noticed in games are really nice in the aspect that you know they will get blown up, so where is that large piece of debris going to be the most effective. This strategy is often not considered. It should say on there profile... leaves terrain that CRIPPLES enemy assault units.
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:43 pm

Yeah my list is likely Turn 2/3 or bust. I wonder if CSM can do a proper alpha strike? I do miss my DE a lot when I put together CSM lists...
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:55 am

yah very short range, with only the Feinds at the two ends of the spectrum...
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:31 am

Flying demon with a black mace... why is know one building lists around this monster......
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:14 am

Prince - 145
Mace - 45
Wings - 40
Armour - 40

270 points minimum. I would probably want to make it a Biomancy Tzeentch Psyker as well though, and thats another 90 points to be Mastery 3!

Too expensive for my tastes when its 4 wounds.
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:36 pm

4 wound flyer
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:10 pm

you don't want to kill Too much in the first round... likely you want to even use Smash attacks (to reduce the total) in the first round so that you have the protection of CC for your opponents turn, then open up for the second round of combat; to hopefully be freed up for your own next turn.


I've written other lists too, but I didn't want to worry too much about who was scoring and who was not.

I have a 'Feel No Pain' list using ALL my Termies, and troops with the FNP Icon.... or another with Two Defilers, and a Forgefeind for support.... gotta play more basic builds to test new ideas..
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PostSubject: Re: Gottacon - The Chaos Codex Discussion!   Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:55 pm

sunrastargod wrote:
4 wound flyer

Yeah, but it cant stay as a flyer and do all it needs to do, and once your in assault, your just a T5/4W monster like you where in the 4th edition chaos book, without that Daemon Weapon doing good, you cannot be expected to go off on your own and wreck face.

I can see how it can do good things no doubt, I just dont like it at a super expensive level.

EDIT: And as a Flyer you cannot be on the board turn 1, so MAYBE your uber Daemon Prince isnt on until Turn 4 and doesnt do anything meaningful until Turn 5! Happened to my Warp Talons actually.
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